WTN: Finger Lakes vs. Germany - Keep on Trocken

Maybe we could do that in a PM. I'm quite sensitive to my position in the industry and know that those in the industry can be even more sensitive .

Sure, send a note. I'll keep it under my hat. Thanks.

Mark L: Did you try the 2004 Left Foot Charlie Riesling from Michigan that geot opened at Toledo? I'd first tried that at the 2006 NiagaraCOOL, but the bottle last February was really, really good. I'm only sorry that I don't have a few bottles myself. If Toledo is in the cards for me this year, and if you're interested, I'll try to bring a couple of interesting bottles of FL Riesling.

No, I missed the Left Foot Charley, dammit! You may recall my report from the first night, where Joe Perry tore me away from the whites before I'd made it through half of them. I don't yet know if I'll be at Toledo this year -- all things depend on timing, but if I am I'd love to try some more FL Rieslings.

Mark Lipton

If you read the results you see that the overall Finger Lakes showing wasn't so far away from the overall German wine showing.

I have no dog whatsoever in this race, and don't know any of the participants, but I think Thomas' view of the event seems a little biased. My read from the actual notes provided by two people, as opposed to a numerical account of the evening (in which two tasters' impressions seem to have been deleted), suggests that there was considerable and consistent concern among the two note-takers about several flawed NY wines. This is a normal occurance in a relatively new wine growing area, especially among small producers, so to my view is not really something to be embarrassed about: it goes with the territory. The same thing happens here in BC (and Ontario). Consistency and balance are elusive in new wine areas: I guess that means it isn't as easy as it looks!

The other commonality is that the Wiemer wine seems to be the best of the NY bunch. Regarding the magical 90 point barrier, as points are subjective and based on the individual (not to mention mood, context, setting, etc.), I'm not really convinced of the need to focus on this issue. And this one small tasting doesn't can't really say anything definitive, but I know how difficult it is to hear 'your' wine region being brushed off as insignificant.

The other constant in these sorts of events are the people who state that 'x' or 'y' or 'z' wine should have been used after the fact! There is no perfect way to compare two regions - in fact, i think it is safe to say that it can never be done!

If you read the results you see that the overall Finger Lakes showing wasn't so far away from the overall German wine showing.

I have no dog whatsoever in this race, and don't know any of the participants, but I think Thomas' view of the event seems a little biased. My read from the actual notes provided by two people, as opposed to a numerical account of the evening (in which two tasters' impressions seem to have been deleted), suggests that there was considerable and consistent concern among the two note-takers about several flawed NY wines. This is a normal occurance in a relatively new wine growing area, especially among small producers, so to my view is not really something to be embarrassed about: it goes with the territory. The same thing happens here in BC (and Ontario). Consistency and balance are elusive in new wine areas: I guess that means it isn't as easy as it looks!

The other commonality is that the Wiemer wine seems to be the best of the NY bunch. Regarding the magical 90 point barrier, as points are subjective and based on the individual (not to mention mood, context, setting, etc.), I'm not really convinced of the need to focus on this issue. And this one small tasting doesn't can't really say anything definitive, but I know how difficult it is to hear 'your' wine region being brushed off as insignificant.

The other constant in these sorts of events are the people who state that 'x' or 'y' or 'z' wine should have been used after the fact! There is no perfect way to compare two regions - in fact, i think it is safe to say that it can never be done!

John. I am not posting a bias, I am referring to the results: out of 6 German and 6 FLakes wines:
4 Flakes wines were scored at or above 90 by 12 times and 5 German wines were scored at or above 90 by 15 times.

Seems rather clear to me what I'm saying. Incidentally, I did not participate in the tasting.

And two people scored EVERY wine so poorly that they clearly were somewhere else that night. Of course, since neither of them gave any wine a 90, they don't rate in the discussion of those wine anyway. It is not unheard of at professionally run wine evaluations to disregard a truly out-to-lunch scorer.

Also, the wine David questions not only has been produced for 25 years, it just came back from winning awards overseas, which is why John, not I, put the wine into the tasting.

I'm not saying that I'm perfect. I could have made a mistake or someone helping me could have, but I'm also not accepting that any one taster is perfect. The tasting shows its results. They speak for that evening, that moment, those wines, and that bunch of people. That's all.

In the wine world, we judges grouse, but we accept the results of a blind tasting and move on.

PS: I wasn't going to respond to posts about this tasting, but I must reiterate that I did this professionally and without bias. My aim was to show tasters what a double blind tasting really means, and how you might learn something from it about perceptions.

[David M. Bueker]

Let me step in here and say that Thomas was acting honestly and just reporting the results. I'm not terribly concerned that two results were left out, but I also do not place any stock in the medal-awarding wine competitions. I've seen similar medals touted on German Rieslings that were completely flawed and undrinkable. I'm sure there are some impeccable competitions, but there are lots and lots of useless ones.

The Prejean had VA. I wasn't the only taster to point out the VA. It was a flawed wine & no number of 90 point scores can change that.

No, I missed the Left Foot Charley, dammit! You may recall my report from the first night, where Joe Perry tore me away from the whites before I'd made it through half of them.

The Left-Foot Charley was actually opened on Saturday, fairly early. Like a lot of the Beaujolais, it got overlooked.

I don't yet know if I'll be at Toledo this year -- all things depend on timing, but if I am I'd love to try some more FL Rieslings.

OK, we'll see how things turn out.

To David and Salil: thanks for posting your notes - it is instructive to hear what some real riesling lovers think of the FL product, which is clearly a work in progress. From my perspective, Wiemer is very consistent year-to-year, but I often find some other producers wines in a given vintage that I prefer. About the phenolics: I know some winemakers in the FL are using extended skin contact following crush with whites - do you think maybe some are going overboard here? There also seem to be a lot of winemakers who follow a very rational/technical style in their winemaking; I'd like to see a few more who taste widely and take a more passionate/seat of the pants approach.

It isn't surprising that David found VA/tiredness in the Prejean - I often note this in their wines. The winemaker was playing around with barrel ageing of riesling and gewurztraminer at one time. They are one of those places I want to like more than I actually do. The regular Glenora bottling is usually nothing to get excited about, but they do have a "Vintner's Select' or some such designation that is a step up. Atwater and Ch. L. Reneau are nicely sited vineyards, quite warm so maybe not the best source of riesling in a warmish year like '07? CLR are medal sluts (you are right to be very skeptical about any kind of medal) but I usually found their rieslings to be a bit heavy and confected.

We spent some time in the FL this autumn and remember some nice riesling from Hosmer, Thirsty Owl (on Cayuga), Silver Thread, Damiani (a very worthy place overall, on Seneca) and from Keuka, a newly released '07 dry at Dr. Frank's (along with the Artesinger from Ravines).

David: given your preferences, you might like the lean style at Treleaven or Anthony Road (which employs a German winemaker, BTW). Out of curiosity, what are the other wineries you visited on your trip?

On the Germans: I haven't had much opportunity to try Diel, but his wines don't seem to be universally praised. Anyone care to comment on that? And I'm delighted to see the comments on the Selbach-Oster because I have some in my wine cabinet. This doesn't appear to suffer from the S-O excessive sufur issue - has this become a thing of the past?

[David M. Bueker]

First comment: I never thought Selbach-Oster was an excessive sulfur producer. Prum & Grunhaus on the other hand...

Salil and I were only able to visit 3 wineries. The first, White Springs, was an unmitigated disaster. Fox Run was our second stop & they made a lovely Gewurztraminer (see Salil's notes) & a very good Cab Franc. Wiemer was our third stop. I really liked their wines, except for a bizarre late harvest Chardonnay.

I appreciate everyone's perspectives. Notes/impressions always mean more to me than numbers, especially with those whose notes I trust, whether because I've read their notes (Salil) or read notes and drunk wine with them (David B and Joe Cz among these tasters). That said, if numbers are being used as the topic of the discussion, the easiest and most straightforward thing is to just post the scores from all the tasters on all the wines (easy to do with Google documents), let the reader decide who is the outlier (you don't have to give taster's name).

First comment: I never thought Selbach-Oster was an excessive sulfur producer. Prum & Grunhaus on the other hand...

Salil and I were only able to visit 3 wineries. The first, White Springs, was an unmitigated disaster. Fox Run was our second stop & they made a lovely Gewurztraminer (see Salil's notes) & a very good Cab Franc. Wiemer was our third stop. I really liked their wines, except for a bizarre late harvest Chardonnay.

For some reason I always had S-O lumped in with Prum and Grunhaus as wines to keep for several years to insure the sulfur would be consumed. Sometimes this conflicted with experience, but... glad to know shouldn't worry much about pulling the corks early.

Funny you mentoned the gewurz at Fox Run, because I found the '07 FL wines from that grape to be delightful in general.
In recent vintages the rieslings from Fox Run haven't impressed, they just seem rather generic.

One oddity of my tastings this fall were that I came across several sauvignon blancs, and a couple of them were delightful (Damiani, Ravines). Previously, the word was that the FL was too cool for this grape, but suddenly there are several producers giving it a try. Pinot Gris also appears to be establishing a foothold.

Thomas, thanks for your well reasoned feedback on my comments, I appreciate them. I didn't mean it as a personal attack by any means - that's not my style. As you note, we all have our biases, goodness knows, and there's never a perfect way to do these events. And no doubt you deserve thanks for running this event. I'd like to see similar events in BC, as it's always interesting to compare 'emerging' vs Old World regions.

[David M. Bueker]

Funny you mentoned the gewurz at Fox Run, because I found the '07 FL wines from that grape to be delightful in general.
In recent vintages the rieslings from Fox Run haven't impressed, they just seem rather generic.

I was not impressed with the Fox RUn Riesling, not even the cooperative effort that they did with two other wineries. Their Cab Franc was good.

First comment: I never thought Selbach-Oster was an excessive sulfur producer. Prum & Grunhaus on the other hand...

Salil and I were only able to visit 3 wineries. The first, White Springs, was an unmitigated disaster. Fox Run was our second stop & they made a lovely Gewurztraminer (see Salil's notes) & a very good Cab Franc. Wiemer was our third stop. I really liked their wines, except for a bizarre late harvest Chardonnay.

For some reason I always had S-O lumped in with Prum and Grunhaus as wines to keep for several years to insure the sulfur would be consumed. Sometimes this conflicted with experience, but... glad to know shouldn't worry much about pulling the corks early.

Funny you mentoned the gewurz at Fox Run, because I found the '07 FL wines from that grape to be delightful in general.
In recent vintages the rieslings from Fox Run haven't impressed, they just seem rather generic.

One oddity of my tastings this fall were that I came across several sauvignon blancs, and a couple of them were delightful (Damiani, Ravines). Previously, the word was that the FL was too cool for this grape, but suddenly there are several producers giving it a try. Pinot Gris also appears to be establishing a foothold.

Joe,

I know a thing or two about Gewurztraminer in the Finger Lakes, as I produced it from 1988 to 1992.

It isn't that the region is too cool for the grape, it's the erratic nature of the winters here. Gewurztraminer vines are not sturdy enough to withstand a severe cold snap below a certain temperature, something that we receive with frightening regularity in the region. With that, it makes growing and maintaining the variety more expensive than the market for the wine allows, and it also faces winemakers with potential years when they have no to little Gewurztraminer to produce.

There is no conspiracy or stupidity among wine industry people--they do the research and quite often they have to make decisions based on their bottom line. Consumers are free to make comments about wine and grape growing but sometimes the comments don't take into consideration the realities.

Very interesting notes, David, Thanks.

I have a slight predeliction away from Trocken wines as I have found them to have a higher incidence of wines that are slightly angular, or slightly lacking in fruit. For me, the regular QbA level is much more reliable - though that doesn't mean I haven't tasted excellent Trocken wines. I guess I just see adding Trockens as putting one more variable into the mix.

I've done the same sort of comparisons between German Rieslings, BC wines and Aussie Rieslings. BC, as John indicated, is still at a very early stage of Riesling production in terms of achieving quality and there are maybe a half dozen that have shown reliably interesting. Aussie ieslings are often problematic to me as while some are varietally correct, quite a few others range all the way out to the unrecognizable and frankly bizarre (the Aussies would say that they allow the grape to express its local identity...)

I'd love to see the same sort of comparison tasting done for Ontario Rieslings. They are ahead of BC with this grape, but we seldom see much product out here on the west coast.

PS to John S - If you get down to civilization, I have a couple of Richter Wehlener Sonnenuhr Kabinnet and Spatlese 2006 that are hard to stay away from.......

...It isn't that the region is too cool for the grape, it's the erratic nature of the winters here. Gewurztraminer vines are not sturdy enough to withstand a severe cold snap below a certain temperature, something that we receive with frightening regularity in the region. With that, it makes growing and maintaining the variety more expensive than the market for the wine allows, and it also faces winemakers with potential years when they have no to little Gewurztraminer to produce.

There is no conspiracy or stupidity among wine industry people--they do the research and quite often they have to make decisions based on their bottom line. Consumers are free to make comments about wine and grape growing but sometimes the comments don't take into consideration the realities.

Thomas - Do you have any experience or knowledge regarding Traminette, either from tasting or folks growing it? Is it a viable alternative to Gewurtz? I planted 11 vines 3 years ago and only one survives, yet 18 of 22 Vignoles vines are still gowing along with 10 of 11 Cayuga vines.

...It isn't that the region is too cool for the grape, it's the erratic nature of the winters here. Gewurztraminer vines are not sturdy enough to withstand a severe cold snap below a certain temperature, something that we receive with frightening regularity in the region. With that, it makes growing and maintaining the variety more expensive than the market for the wine allows, and it also faces winemakers with potential years when they have no to little Gewurztraminer to produce.

There is no conspiracy or stupidity among wine industry people--they do the research and quite often they have to make decisions based on their bottom line. Consumers are free to make comments about wine and grape growing but sometimes the comments don't take into consideration the realities.

Thomas - Do you have any experience or knowledge regarding Traminette, either from tasting or folks growing it? Is it a viable alternative to Gewurtz? I planted 11 vines 3 years ago and only one survives, yet 18 of 22 Vignoles vines are still gowing along with 10 of 11 Cayuga vines.

Howie,

My experiences with Traminette are what I've read and been told in a seminar at Cornell, and what I've consumed as wine.

You might want to take your experience to Tim Martinson at the Geneva Agricultural Station and get what he knows. According to their information, they developed Traminette specifically to survive the Western NY climate.

Better yet, get in touch with John Brahm at Arbor Hill Grapery, Canandaigua Lake. He was one of two or three involved in experimental growing of that hybrid. He was in fact one fellow who pushed to have that grape developed.

Joe,

I see that I slightly misread your post. I was on Gewurztraminer and you slid into Sauvignon Blanc...

According to my conversations with Morten Halgrem, he swears that Keuka Lake's climate is no worse (cold-wise) than Bordeaux. Perhaps, but I doubt Bordeaux gets as low as 10-20 below zero cold snaps either at all or as often as we do. Again, it's those nasty snaps that can do in tender vines, which was the basis behind all of Dr. Frank's work with vinifera cloning.

Having said that, I have a refrigerator full of Ravines' 07 Sauvignon Blanc right now (my wife works at the tasting room!). It is a wonderful wine. I've tasted it against some Quincy, and it does quite nicely. I don't know the exact stats, but I'm almost certain that Quincy is colder than Bordeaux...

Morten's SB does its job sans the overly herbaceous/asparagus/grassy/cat pee that the variety is known to produce. Those qualities are in there, but in reasonable balance and subtlety.

Thanks, Thomas

As I couldn't help but notice, my takes on the wines diverged in some respects from those who've posted their reviews already. So for the sake of balance, here goes, in the order they were presented:

1. von Basserman-Jordan Trocken: Bit oily-petrolly. Apple and citrus fruit, ample concentration and length. 85
2. Lafayette Reneau 2007: Lovely floral aromas, citrus and peach. Plump and rounded in the mouth. A bit sweeter than others but nicely balanced. Could use more length. 87
3. Diel GG: Modest mineral, some floral and apple notes. Citrus, mineral flavors, slightly creamy midpalate but roughly phenolic on finish. 86

4. Leitz Ein Zwei Drei: Almost salty, minerally. Citrus. Crisp, medium-weight, great freshness, verve; good length. 89
5. Ravines 2007: Slightly musky-minerally. Light in body. Bone dry, lean and even a bit astringent, but long. 84
6. Weimer 2006: Nice aromas of green apple, pear, shale. On the sweet, heavy side. Dull. 80

7. Glenora 2007 Dry: Penetrating mineral notes, nectarine. Off-dry, textured, layered mouthfeel. Complex. 89
8. Donnhoff Grey Slate: Slaty, oily. Crisply acidic, brisk, citrusy, long. Nice. 90
9. Weimer 2006: Shows fair amount of diesel, mineral, apple. Sweet, heavy. Acids stick out on finish. Eh. 81

10. Selbach-Oster Zeltinger Himmelreich: Slaty, oily nose. Medium body, quite rich and powerful, good length. 90
11. Atwater: Oxidized.
12. Prejean 2006: Bit of botrytis? Odd floral and honey nose w/bit of VA. Dull on palate. 81

11. Atwater: Shale aromas, oily. Heavy, richly textured, long. 89
13. Messmer: Leesy aromas, high-toned, slate notes. Plump, creamy, rich w/o being heavy. Long, mineral finish. 91
14. Vineland Estate 2007: Lime, mineral, floral. High acid, low alcohol. Green apple, tart, crisp, long. 90
15. Prejean 2006: Apricot, botrytis? Bit of VA, weighty, not that long. 85

My scoring system: 80-82 Acceptable. 83-86 Good. 87-89 Very good. 90-93 Excellent.

I tried to avoid focusing on where the wines were from and instead just tried to zero in on what was in the glass. I have to admit I felt a bit vindicated afterwards, not having given any FL wines the coveted 90 points, but overall, the FL wines acquitted themselves decently and looking back at my notes, I don't think it would have been easy to pick out all of the Finger Lakes and German wines. I certainly think that FL Rieslings are "promising" to steal a word from Thomas's scoring sheet.

[David M. Bueker]

I can certainly agree with the promise of Finger Lakes Rieslings. If they can just conquer some of that phenolic roughness I might fall for them hook, line & sinker.

Joe,

I see that I slightly misread your post. I was on Gewurztraminer and you slid into Sauvignon Blanc...

According to my conversations with Morten Halgrem, he swears that Keuka Lake's climate is no worse (cold-wise) than Bordeaux. Perhaps, but I doubt Bordeaux gets as low as 10-20 below zero cold snaps either at all or as often as we do. Again, it's those nasty snaps that can do in tender vines, which was the basis behind all of Dr. Frank's work with vinifera cloning.

Having said that, I have a refrigerator full of Ravines' 07 Sauvignon Blanc right now (my wife works at the tasting room!). It is a wonderful wine. I've tasted it against some Quincy, and it does quite nicely. I don't know the exact stats, but I'm almost certain that Quincy is colder than Bordeaux...

Morten's SB does its job sans the overly herbaceous/asparagus/grassy/cat pee that the variety is known to produce. Those qualities are in there, but in reasonable balance and subtlety.

Yeah Thomas: don't you remember that I've actually bought a few bottles of your gewurz back in the day? Cana Vineyards, IIRC!
Nice stuff it was too. The vagaries of that grape are familiar to me.

On SB: back in the '90s I remember stopping by New Land when the original owners were running it and they occasionally had a decent SB, even a late harvest version. I kept wondering why no one else gave it a try. Now it seems to be showing up here and there. One grower told me (either at Thirsty Owl or Damiani, I can't recall) told me they were careful to bury the vines in the winter, that was the key to getting the vines through the winter. Give the Damiani a try if you can. Thirsty Owl's was their first try and didn't seem too varietal to me.

Joe,

I see that I slightly misread your post. I was on Gewurztraminer and you slid into Sauvignon Blanc...

According to my conversations with Morten Halgrem, he swears that Keuka Lake's climate is no worse (cold-wise) than Bordeaux. Perhaps, but I doubt Bordeaux gets as low as 10-20 below zero cold snaps either at all or as often as we do. Again, it's those nasty snaps that can do in tender vines, which was the basis behind all of Dr. Frank's work with vinifera cloning.

Having said that, I have a refrigerator full of Ravines' 07 Sauvignon Blanc right now (my wife works at the tasting room!). It is a wonderful wine. I've tasted it against some Quincy, and it does quite nicely. I don't know the exact stats, but I'm almost certain that Quincy is colder than Bordeaux...

Morten's SB does its job sans the overly herbaceous/asparagus/grassy/cat pee that the variety is known to produce. Those qualities are in there, but in reasonable balance and subtlety.

Yeah Thomas: don't you remember that I've actually bought a few bottles of your gewurz back in the day? Cana Vineyards, IIRC!
Nice stuff it was too. The vagaries of that grape are familiar to me.

On SB: back in the '90s I remember stopping by New Land when the original owners were running it and they occasionally had a decent SB, even a late harvest version. I kept wondering why no one else gave it a try. Now it seems to be showing up here and there. One grower told me (either at Thirsty Owl or Damiani, I can't recall) told me they were careful to bury the vines in the winter, that was the key to getting the vines through the winter. Give the Damiani a try if you can. Thirsty Owl's was their first try and didn't seem too varietal to me.

Ah yes, I am losing my memory. I do remember now that you and I had discussed my Gewurztraminer on this board once before.

I also remember the New Land SB. Nancy was a fine winemaker. I don't know what became of the grapes for that wine. I'm sipping the Ravines SB right now, and can say without reservation that it is a terrific drink.

This region has many surprises. I just wish that the producers would focus and stop trying to produce everything under the "Grail" name. You might remember that i focused on whites only and kept them at Riesling, Gewurztraminer, Chardonnay, and Vignoles. At the time, they were the varieties that proved extremely worthy in the region, even though the Gewurz was problematic. If I was still in the game, I'd add Cabernet Franc, Lemberger, and Pinot Noir--and Sauvionon Blanc. But I'm merely a bystander now, with no clout. Can't even seem to run a blind tasting that pleases people

Another vote here for the strangeness of the Finger Lakes selections. A more interesting assortment would have included Swedish Hill and Hosmer Both were excellent this year.

[David M. Bueker]

You know, everyone seems to have an opinion on what should have been poured. What's even better is the wide range of opinions. Guess what - a decision was made & the wines were poured.