The Charles Dickens of Pizza

I can't come up with a "best" pizza but there have been many, many memorable ones.

In a town called Montagnana (SP?) after a long day driving, we stopped in a small place and ordered this pizza - the waiter brought it to our table, steaming hot, and cracked an egg right on top, which proceeded to cook from the heat. The pizza also had pancetta on it - bacon and egg pizza!

The train station in Venice. Or on the Piazza del Campo, under the stars with a bottle of vino rosso, in Siena. (more for the moment than the pizza)

Patsy's in Harlem. DiFara's in Brooklyn. Louie and Ernie's in the Bronx. Anytime. Every time.

Friday nights, when I was a little kid, I could walk up to Sorrento Pizza on Williamsbridge Road and get two slices and a soda for a buck. I can still taste it now. All of those.

Oh, and Cindy, who is now an expert pizza maker, didn't start out that way. When she first started making pizzas, they were good, if amateurish efforts. One time, she was making a pie, and all of a sudden, she disappeared from view some time. Curioius, I went into the kitchen to investigate, where I found her crying. "I can't get the dough to stretch out right." I told her it would be fine, to put it in the oven anyway, mishapen and all. I promised her it would be just fine, and it was. That might have been the best one of all.


As to worst, again, there's too many to count. Certainly my first introduction to California style pizza, freakishly laden with "toppings" would have to qualify. Olives? On a pizza? Pineapple? Good lord, please.
I had a very bad pizza in Paris, but I don't recall where - it was a very modern style place, with gleaming chrome and glass everywhere, and flat panel tvs playing music videos. Not good.
Oh, there's a place someone took me to once, where they raved, just raved about the pizza, said it was the best in NY. Can't remember the name now, but it had so much cheese on it, the pizza looked like a skating rink. Truly awful.

Okay, this is too easy.

The best I ever had (and used to get it all the time) was White Clam Sauce Pizza from Todd English's "Figs" Restaurants in Boston. It was basically clams, lots of garlic, olive oil, perhaps a bit of white wine and fresh parsley. Oh, and I know it's not traditional Italian to put cheese on seafood, but of course there was cheese on it. Unfortunately they took it off their menu, but not before I was able to duplicate it at home, so I do make it when we get a craving.

I can't think of a bad pizza beyond the other night's zpizza fiasco. See my thread: Small Town Restaurant Boom for full details.

Jenise, I love to make pizza, and one of my favorite combinations is arugula and prosciutto. They go together like salt and pepper. I have found by trial and error that it is best if I add the prosciutto about half way through cooking, and the arugula after it comes out of the oven. I always let pizza sit for about 3 minutes or so before slicing, and that is the perfect amount of time for the arugula to wilt. No dressing for me.

I feel a pizza night coming on.

By the way, Jenise, I got an invite to a winemaker/chef dinner at the Willows Inn on Lummi Island. What's it like?

Ray, one of my favorite appetizers to make is to split soft white pita breads, spread "cut side" with olive oil and carmelized onions, top with fontina and prosciutto, bake about 10 minutes until crispy and finish with chopped arugula (added after cooking). I'm actually making a version of this tonight for our Pinot Noir tasting, but switching the carmelized onions for roasted garlic and switching the prosciutto for duck confit that I made last night. All else will remain the same.

Olives? On a pizza?.

Sounds traditional to me, at least in the Italian sense.

[Jenise]

if you are having problems finding salad on pizza, you should come down South because it's quite common in the Bay Area. Pizza with nettles is one of the staples at the Chez Panisse cafe. (It's also a staple Chez Rahsaan, when nettles are in season)..

Tell me more about nettles. There is a place on Lummi Island near me that was once a nettles farm with a roadside stand--indicating they were in high demand. And on Orcas Island I once ordered a nettles soup that was served with a spectacular clam fritter. And then there's a cheesemaker in Skagit who makes a nettles cheese. I've not otherwise ever seen or had nettles, I simply run into echoes of them in this area. I would have no idea how to deal with them--are these the same nettles that sting? What part do you use?

I would have no idea how to deal with them--are these the same nettles that sting? What part do you use?

Yes, they do sting. And I've heard of that nettles soup as a traditional East European dish although I've never had it and can't quite imagine what it is like?

What I like about nettles is their deep woodsey green flavors, which seem to come out best when only briefly warmed, so they lose the prickle yet don't lose the sublety. So in that sense pizza is a great dish for them for me.

The stems seem to have more of the prickles than the leaves, so I usually just pluck off the leaves, wash and cook. In our local farmer's market there are several people who bring nettles, and some are less prickly/easier to handle than others.

[Jenise]

I would have no idea how to deal with them--are these the same nettles that sting? What part do you use?

Yes, they do sting. And I've heard of that nettles soup as a traditional East European dish although I've never had it and can't quite imagine what it is like?

What I like about nettles is their deep woodsey green flavors, which seem to come out best when only briefly warmed, so they lose the prickle yet don't lose the sublety. So in that sense pizza is a great dish for them for me.

The stems seem to have more of the prickles than the leaves, so I usually just pluck off the leaves, wash and cook. In our local farmer's market there are several people who bring nettles, and some are less prickly/easier to handle than others.

Wow, so it's the same plant. The top soil I bought to fill my raised vegetable garden a few years ago came with nettle seeds in it, so occasionally I accidentally pull one when weeding, and one light contact with one finger makes my whole hand buzz with pain. I cannot even imagine trusting that cooked lightly on a pizza, I could put that in my mouth! The soup was another issue, and yes it tasted of forest. Deep green and woodsy.

I can't come up with a "best" pizza but there have been many, many memorable ones.

I have the same experience, lots of different kinds.

Things brightened in the US in 1980s when high-end pizzas began appearing with European ingredients like wild mushrooms, Chevre, roasted garlic; also the more free-format Italian approach (i.e. not always tomato sauce and cheese). Rahsaan mentioned the Chez Panisse Café in Berkeley (satellite operation opening in the 1980s over the famous local fresh-ingredients restaurant) which was in fact built around a pizza-calzone oven and from the beginning, used the European free-format approach of savory toppings -- just good onions and herbs (no tomato or cheese) made one of the best pizza toppings I remember.

(Pineapple by the way is the "Hawaiian" topping; I don't know its origin. Things like that are eagerly identified with California by certain Northeasterners -- those remaining ones who haven't themselves moved to California yet -- that also pronounce calzone, provolone, etc. like "cal-ZONE" without final vowel.)

Best pizza enjoyed in last 6 months was a very Italian minimalistic style served at A16 in San Francisco (a unique, moderately-priced, very popular restaurant named for an Italian autoroute) and made by a "licensed" Italian pizza chef there. (Some of us went to try that place at the urging of friends who are part of the business.) It had a microscopically thin crust and a very flavorful, thin layer of some kind of tomato sauce; that was about it, yet it sang, from the ingredients and technique.

Olives? On a pizza?.

Sounds traditional to me, at least in the Italian sense.

Well, it isn't. Not at all.
If it was even nodding in the direction of Italian tradition, there would be a few chopped olives of good quality strewn around the pizza.
Come to California, order a pizza, with olives, and see if that's what you get.

Jenise - Re the stinging nettles...cooking de-activates the stings on the nettles...just be sure they are cooked long enough (not just wilted, like the arugula). They are quite tasty!

[Jenise]

Maria said:

Jenise - The local pizzeria my parents frequent has an arugula topped pizza. I think it's ok, but I don't think that their actual pizza is very good...too much cheese, gets soggy with the arugula and vinegarette, etc.

When I lived in Chicago, I really enjoyed the pan/stuffed crust pizza. The best I ever had was hands down from "Chicago Pizza". And I ate at all the "great" Chicago pizza places...waited for 2 hrs to have a pizza at Gino's East, and still think that Chicago Pizza beat them all.

Maria, I guess pizza with arugula is like anything else: it has to be done right.

Did the same at Gino's East: wanted to have THE Chicago pizza experience. Wasn't impressed. Seemed plain to my tastes, and I hated the crust.

If it was even nodding in the direction of Italian tradition, there would be a few chopped olives of good quality strewn around the pizza.
Come to California, order a pizza, with olives, and see if that's what you get.

I live in California, and when I get pizza with olives (whether at home or in restaurants) there are always a few chopped olives of good quality strewn around the pizza.

How else would you incorporate olives on pizza?

Rashaan, sometimes I wonder if your questions are genuine, or if you're trolling.

But I don't know you, so I'll assume the former.

I am talking about cheap, crappy quality olives, usually from Spain, but they could be from elsewhere, that are processed and chopped into very small bits, so that they really don't look anything like an olive(known as pizza olives in the trade) and packed into cans. They don't taste much like olives, in fact, they don't taste much like anything at all. The pizzas I came into contact with, upon my moving to California, seemed to be covered with these dreadful olives. By covered, I mean, layered in such as way as to block from view any other item that may have resided on the pizza. The pizza appeared to be crawling with small black insects.
You, fortunately, came to live in California much later than I, when pizza sensibilities had been elevated a few notches. Consider yourself lucky.

[Jenise]

Jenise, I love to make pizza, and one of my favorite combinations is arugula and prosciutto. They go together like salt and pepper. I have found by trial and error that it is best if I add the prosciutto about half way through cooking, and the arugula after it comes out of the oven. I always let pizza sit for about 3 minutes or so before slicing, and that is the perfect amount of time for the arugula to wilt. No dressing for me.

I feel a pizza night coming on.

By the way, Jenise, I got an invite to a winemaker/chef dinner at the Willows Inn on Lummi Island. What's it like?

Ray, haven't had arugula and proscuitto together on pizza, but my fave local pizza is proscuitto/rosemary/red onion/black pepper. I always specify extra rosemary. And much as I like the proscuitto, I would probably be just as happy with the rest of those ingredients alone. This thread has put me in the mood for a pizza night, too.

Which winemaker/chef? Are you considering going? The Willows Inn is the very former nettles farm I was mentioning to Rahsaan. We went to one of their winemaker dinners last winter, had a great time. The chef was Jerry Traunfeld of The Herb Farm in Seattle, and we booked rooms and stayed over even though it's only 20 minutes from home. Totally the right thing to do--we had breakfast with Jerry in the morning, and it's amazing how sleeping in a strange bed even just minutes from home makes you feel like you've really been Somewhere. Better than our experience was one from the prior winter they told us about where a bigger than expected snow storm totally shut down the ferry, effectively stranding the visiting chef, the visiting musicians and the Inn guests who had this three day long bacchanalia of a gourmet pajama party.

Rashaan, sometimes I wonder if your questions are genuine, or if you're trolling.

But I don't know you, so I'll assume the former.

I am talking about cheap, crappy quality olives, usually from Spain, but they could be from elsewhere, that are processed and chopped into very small bits, so that they really don't look anything like an olive(known as pizza olives in the trade) and packed into cans...The pizza appeared to be crawling with small black insects.

You, fortunately, came to live in California much later than I, when pizza sensibilities had been elevated a few notches. Consider yourself lucky.

Well, I had a feeling you were talking about low quality olives, but I wasn't sure if you somehow meant the giant olives stuffed with all kinds of crap, that seemed to be a popular accompaniment for Low Quality MidWestern Meals circa 1950s (not that I know from firsthand experience, I wasn't born).

But, now I understand your point, and have run across those "olives" on a few Dominoes Monstrosities myself.

But still, your initial point seemed to be that olives on a pizza was a strange heretical combination, which we both agree is not the case. Rather, the question is whether the ingredients are of good quality. As always.

John -- one of the interesting aspects of this place, for me, is seeing combinations of people that I know from other environments, environments which are very different and almost mutually exclusive.

I have always been impressed by Rahsaan, he is young and bright and very curious and his enthusiasm for wine seems boundless. But never a troll.

Frank

If it was even nodding in the direction of Italian tradition, there would be a few chopped olives of good quality strewn around the pizza.
Come to California, order a pizza, with olives, and see if that's what you get.

I live in California, and when I get pizza with olives (whether at home or in restaurants) there are always a few chopped olives of good quality strewn around the pizza.

How else would you incorporate olives on pizza?

I actually developed my initial taste for olives (which I had disliked previously) when I lived for a time in Buenos Aires. I was a student and ordered pizzas often enough, but repeatedly could not remember what 'aceitunas' were and so ordered them on my pizza to find out what they were. So I had a lot of pizzas with whole olives (pits and all) plopped on top of a cheese pizza. By the time I finally had been able to remember that aceitunas were olives, I liked them and kept on ordering them.

Which winemaker/chef? Are you considering going?

It's Adam Campbell from Elk Cove and Greg Higgins, who probably needs no introduction. It's on February 21st. I'm thinking about going, but to get the wife on board, I'd need to know a little more about the Inn and what there is to do (e.g. spa treatments).

Is the ferry a car ferry or passenger only? And is it from Bellingham?

Rashaan, sometimes I wonder if your questions are genuine, or if you're trolling. But I don't know you, so I'll assume the former.
... The pizza appeared to be crawling with small black insects. You, fortunately, came to live in California much later than I, when pizza sensibilities had been elevated a few notches. Consider yourself lucky.

I testify (having dined with him and others here -- and traded wit, which is more important -- Rahsaan is a gentleman and a scholar, a sportsman at repartee, and one of the more flavor-conscious people I've met. (Nothing like meeting someone to convince you they are a real person.)

Still I know of what John speaks. These are among the discouraged, dilapidated, pro-forma pizza toppings, One From Column "A" And One From Column "B," so familiar in California (which must have 6000 chain pizza restaurants) but alas not just there. No. Some day when you wish to be depressed, let me tell you of the fraction of my life spent in the Pittsburgh airport -- especially the old one, before the remodel. Moreover I once lived in the US capital for delivered pizza, yes it's in California and no, the pizza is not very good there.

I actually developed my initial taste for olives (which I had disliked previously) when I lived for a time in Buenos Aires...So I had a lot of pizzas with whole olives (pits and all) plopped on top of a cheese pizza..

Wow. So you were supposed to spit out the pits?

Whatever the style, am glad that you developed a love for the Divine Olives.

I testify (having dined with him and others here -- and traded wit, which is more important -- Rahsaan is a gentleman and a scholar, a sportsman at repartee, and one of the more flavor-conscious people I've met.

I have always been impressed by Rahsaan..never a troll.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Best: Valentino's in Gloucester Ma, and Elvio's in North Conway New Hampshire

Worst: Some vender in Venice. Pizza (shockingly) was uniformly bad in Italy.

Hi Maria,
Many good pizzarias in Chicago now - Spacca Napoli, A Part Pizza just to name a couple. Renaldis is disgusting, Ginos, Giardanos, Pizzaria Due/Uno all rest on their corporate laurels. Gotta find the new small places for good za these days.

Let me know when you're in town and Sandy and I will find a good one for you.