Controversial Subject - Warning....

[Craig Winchell]

What a pleasure to have you enter the fray, Josh, seeing as you are the person who pulled me in to this (or rather, the Stratsplace) group, in response to something or other that I had said, written, or something of that nature. You see, it's all your fault.

Now that you're here, it's already invigorating the group, and you should stay. I think the last time I saw you was at my restaurant, which was many moons ago. Let's continue to interact. Is your mom still out our way?

[Joshua London]

Hi Craig,
You are way too kind (most folks on the forum probably don't even know who I am ). Yes, it was your fab(!) joint and it was many, many moons ago. My mom is still out there, not too far from the Herzog Winery. I do go visit periodically, but don't usually make it out to your neck of the woods. Before my next trip though, whenever that'll be, I'll be sure to see if we can't find time to get together.
All best,
Josh

[Yehoshua Werth]

Welcome back to the Forum.. Been here only over a year myself and have talked with many about this strats place .. Look to hearing more and L'Chaim

[ChaimShraga]

By removing Rogov's name we gain non-Religous.. Uh WHAT? He was the link.

Just out of curiousity, Yehoshua, how do you think the serious, non-kosher, wine lovers regard Rogov? Do you really think the mention of his name is going to bring them here. Even while he was alive, opinion on him in Israel was split. I can tell you that in Israel anyway, the mention of his name is definitely not going to bring new participants. No way. If you really think that, you need to wake up and smell the coffee. I think the books have brought in any observant wine lovers and that source of participants is exhausted and you need to re-invent yourself. You can always keep this place going as a shrine - and I think, Yehoshua, that the fact that you capitalized the word "name" when referring to Rogov a few posts back (as in "his Name") is telling - but the majority of you guys seem to want to improve the quality of the Forum.

I really have no interest as a member, I'm not even patriotic enough to worry about the representation of Israeli wines in general, but I do think the industry deserves a more open eco-system where its wines are discussed.

And I want to say something else. Stratsplace, way back, started out as a general forum platform where Rogov was one of the leading members, but it wasn't blatantly HIS forum at the start. At least, I felt that there was a greater sense of an active community and Rogov was "first among equals", or something to that effect. There were a few dubious 'characters' used to echo Rogov's opinions, but generally speaking, even after Rogov took Stratsplace over - and I'm going to be blunt again - the place may have felt like a rabbi and a yeshiva, but there was less of a feeling of a cult that you get here (at least among the Israeli members at Strats - the foreign members were always suspect anyway). The bottom line is that when Rogov moved here and the Forum was renamed, I felt like the Forum was hijacked, even though I hadn't been on speaking/writing terms with Rogov for the previous couple of years. I mean, he put a lot of effort, but like Craig said, a lot of it was PR, in subtle and sometimes un-subtle ways, and that's fine, really, but hey - there's no way he would have made as big an impact if we hadn't been there there making conversation on a daily basis.

[Yehoshua Werth]

This I value..

Clean and to the point..

After asking many about strats place this I admit never heard how the transition took place.
For me Rogov brought so much together for so many and filled a much needed gap building a bridge from the Kosher and Non-Kosher worlds.(As I have stated many times I dont agree with many of his scores for my pallete and would not buy many wines based upon those scores)
I grew up drinking pretty good non-Kosher wine only and find the space that the Israelis you and some here refer to as strange yet normal.
This man we refer to "Rogov" brought a world of people to Buy, look at and support many of the countries wineries Kosher and not.
How is it that so many as some of the people here speak of were rubbed the wrong way?(When speaking of this chat) When his tribute dinner was made durring harvest it seemed like most of the Wine people in Israel made some effort to go. Am I missing something?

After reading the posts that people say turned off some of the Israeli crowd.. Well I just dont get the Harshness that would push someone away.. Goofy yes, off balance yes; yet over the top rude.. No just not seeing it.
Hope to see this thru as a growing budding Forum for those who love wine.

[Joshua London]

Actually, from my possibly warped perspective, I think ChaimShraga said it rather well.

[Philip Aron]

Actually, I thought Haim Shraga said it brilliantly.

[YoelA]

I don't have any historical perspective on this forum and i want to be constructive. I only joined it a couple of years ago, about the time that Stratsplace shut down (or somewhat thereafter). And, based on the ways of the world, I assume that Rogov got to where he was in terms of being (a) a recognized wine critic in general (maybe food, too) and (b) a recognized source of piles of information on Israeli wines (kosher and non-kosher) so that wineries were agreeable (if not 100% welcoming) to his visiting them, tasting their wines and reporting on them through a combination of lots of PR, chutzpah and a few other abilities, some of which may have been disagreeable to some people.

Nonetheless, as I have said a couple of times, this forum at least lacks someone (or someones) who can carry on this role, who can report on new Israeli releases, new Israeli wineries, and optionally on retasting older vintages. And if there are one or more such people who are not involved with this forum, then it would be very beneficial to try to get them involved here - otherwise this becomes less of an informative source and more of an amateur wine arguing society.

Assuming that others agree with me on the desirability of having such a forum, how do we go about doing it?

[Isaac Chavel]

I, also, appreciate Chaim Shraga's remarks.

The reason, as I understand it, why people drinking kosher wine so appreciated Rogov's work was that it was very wide, indeed. The best part of the forum was direct reporting reporting on wineries in Israel straight from the tasting. I found his work on kosher wine in the Exile to lack the interest and the timing --- hence the drop in quality of his work --- that he had for Israeli wines.

I was participant for a few years in the Stratsplace forum as well, and felt the difference in the move here. It has really narrowed to a forum on kosher wines. I recognize that his books have been extremely influential in the kosher-wine-drinking community, as they opened the window to loads of kosher drinkers first discovering wine, as more than kiddush. That said, it's over. I, personally, find it strange that people are so dedicated to his memory. Respect? yes. Personal gratitude for his contribution to their participation in the world of wine? unquestioned. Everyone owes myriads of people, known and unknown, who have made personal contributions to their lives. But time to move on? equally unquestioned. This is no longer Rogov's forum, especially as he would have liked to envision it for the future; I have hung around here long enough to know that.

In sum, "things aint what they used to be." (I think it's a Duke Elligton composition) Move on. Change the name to reflect what is going on here. See if there is a way to mention in the banner that it is an offshoot of a wine forum moderated by Rogov.

Isaac

[Yossie Horwitz]

I don't really feel that strongly about changing the name of the forum one way or another, but don't really understand (i) why it would be necessary; nor (ii) what people think it will accomplish. Rogov founded and ran the forum for years, I see no harm it the forum continuing to be called "Rogov's Forum" for no other reason as out of respect for the establishment he created. He was instrumental in elevating awareness for kosher and Israeli wine which is what the forum will continue to focus on regardless of the direction we took - what's the issue with it being Rogov's Forum (obviously references to him as moderator or otherwise actively participating need to be removed unless we start some virtual séances). I doubt people suggested changing the name of Rockefeller Center once it's namesake tenant was gone or renaming Stratsplace after Art passed away.

I see no connection between keeping it called "Rogov's Forum' and moving on to a new format, which is obviously necessitated by changing circumstances (both the obvious loss of his articles, information and dedicated time and efforts to "his" forum and by virtue of a clear shift to a primary focus on kosher wines and its related topics).

So long as the vast majority of kosher wines continue to be produced in Israel, the forum will also be the primary English-speaking forum for discussions on Israeli wines as well, thus providing (hopefully) areas of interest for those interested in Israeli wines, if not necessarily kosher wines (and despite welcome proliferation of global production of kosher wines, I don't see Israel relinquishing its position as primary kosher wine producer for quite some time, if at all [if for no other reason as having the largest collection of the Sabbath Observant Jews required for such production]).

The three areas in which the forum has been most significantly impacted by Rogov's passing are (i) regular updates/tasting notes for barrel tastings, advance tasting and newly released wines which provided a window into what we could expect as consumers on what was coming down the pipeline (more on the Israeli side than the global kosher one, but that as well); (ii) articles/informative responses about wine topics in general; and (iii) news and informational updates about the Israeli and general kosher wine industry (again, primarily the Israeli one). Given his time commitment to the forum, he was also primarily responsible for starting threads on interesting/engaging topics and keeping them going but this is something I think we have managed to carry on rather nicely and is an area where every forumite can help, both by suggesting topics and participating in existing ones.

As I have mentioned many times before, I don't believe any one person can replace the information loss but I do think that there are a number of people who, with combined efforts, can be helpful is continuing to make this a lively and engaging place to discuss kosher wine. For those who are comfortable with Hebrew, I highly recommending checking out some of the Hebrew blogs which can provide much of the news updates and a number of participates are involved with the wine industry and can provide updates and news on what is happening.

A number of forumites, including myself, write regularly about kosher wines and other related topics and spend a fair amount of time following the industry and staying up to date. As discussed in the past, while I don't think people who have thier own venues for wine writing (like Raccah, Chaim, Jon, Rhodes and others) should be expected to recreate their material here (regardless of any commercial aspects, presumably they would like to maintain thier own venues) but I would guess they are all more than happy to continue linking to materials they think the forum would be interested in as has been done to date. As Adam has mentioned in the past, many folks here have commercial ties to the industry but, in my opinion, as long as these are stated clearly/known, I see no harm in thier participation - au contraire - they are the folks who tend to have the most/best information.

With respect to tasting notes, obviously no one person can taste every kosher (or even Israeli) wine each year but there are many members of this forum who taste hundreds of wines a year and would likely share TN's when asked.

If people want the forum to continue it is going to require a group effort and more active participation on by everyone and a willingness to accept everyone's opinion as well as a respect for the forum's non-commercial/biased basis.

[Adam M]

This is going nowhere fast. And it aint productive, either. We should vote or write this thread off.

This is now a kosher wine forum. And it's the only one in the world. There are hundreds of non-kosher wine forums. To say that the forum is a home for all wine lovers is analogous to an orthodox Jewish day school accepting applications from all faiths because it wants to qualify for federal funding. We don't need "federal funding" from anyone. As long as the people remain active and treat one another with the utmost respect, this kosher wine forum will grow leaps and bounds.

[Craig Winchell]

OK, I didn't think that we needed a vote, but I'll second a call for a vote, just to get this moving. What shouyld be the issues we vote on? Name, scope (kosher only/not necessarily kosher only), moderation (yes/no), if so, what should be the purpose of the moderator? What else?

[Alexander F]

Hey guys,
If I remember correctly, I found this forum couple of years ago while googling for reviews on Tulip wines. So, the name of the forum isn't necessary going to bring more people in, it's the content and discussions that are going here would rank it high in the search engines. I don't think changing the name would bring people in, but I do think the description should clearly state what kind of discussions are held here. I'm in favor of leaving the name for a while as a respect to the founder.
Rogov maintained this forum from the perspective of kosher, Israeli and world wines, although kosher discussions were dominating. Now, it became even more, if not absolutely kosher. I think the forum should keep itself open for other views and of cause drive Israeli wines in general, not only those that are kosher. I'd like to see a description like "Discussions about Israeli, Kosher and World wines". I put Israeli first deliberately, these wines are discussed most and they are mostly kosher anyway, but it covers also the non-kosher local wines that may interest some future (and past) audience.
I think the voting should be around the name change and the scope.

[Jonathan K]

I have nothing to add. Shall we start by voting on name change?

[Yehoshua Werth]

I vote no Name change..

with a few words in() saying "Wine Forum focused on Inernational and Kosher wines.

[Robin Garr]

I have nothing to add. Shall we start by voting on name change?

I'll put up a poll. I assume we are voting on the title, not the subtitle, and we are talking about the full Rogov forum set, the overall "Rogov's Place" and "Rogov's Wine Forum" and "Rogov's Culinary Corner."

[DavidNS]

I think that it is a shame that a place that was once a forum for Israeli and kosher wines has now become strictly kosher.
It seems that the tolerance and open mindedness of the forum has gone to the grave with Rogov z"l

[Yossie Horwitz]

David - while the forum hasn't gone "strictly kosher", it has become more focused on kosher. However this has nothing to do with tolerance or open mindedness but rather the facts on the ground. Rogov was the primary contributor with respect to matters relating to non-kosher wines and with his passing there hasn't been anyone to step in and provide such information - please feel free to do so. The majority of folks actively participating on the forum these days drink only (or primarily) kosher wines and have little to offer with respect to (and frankly less interests in) non-kosher wines (other than in connection with general discussions in which there are many folks knowledgeable about the wine world in general irrespective of their kosher observance). Personally, I would be more than happy to have more discussions about Israeli wine in general and while I personally don't drink non-kosher wines, find discussions about the various non-kosher wines and wineries interesting and welcome the participation of forumites with experience and interest in those areas.

With Rogov gone, each of us has more responsibility to keeping this forum alive, engaging and open - instead of lobbing in an accusatory complaint, how about trying to participate?

[Gabriel Geller]

Yossie is right David, a bunch of active forumites still post TNs and threads about non K wines and I'm myself trying to create discussions over general topics such as old world vs new and such so yes there is a main focus on K wines now more than when Rogov was around but I think Yossie said it well, we surely welcome anyone willing to chat about wine whether kosher or not and Israeli or not.

[Yehoshua Werth]

YES...

All Wine conversation welcome with respect.

[Harry J]

in response to DavidNS perhaps the tolerance or lack thereof is demonstrated by those who havent posted albeit Israeli wines without kosher supervsion -point being the wine not the label-yet havent because alot of the conversation involved wines that are . as others I echo the invitation to those who drank in the virtual halls of Rogov's to join us again on the forum. h